Vortex Gaming

Indeed, the emergence of a dark horse. 'Lies of P' by Round8 Studio (Team NOUGH), released on September 19, 2023, has left a significant mark on the Korean game industry in many ways. First, it showed that we too can create a Soulslike game with a dark fantasy setting, which previously felt like something only other countries could do. And do it in style. It's also surprising that its popularity started at an overseas game show and spread worldwide, but above all, the fact that it satisfied the notoriously picky enthusiasts of this genre in one go is a miracle even now.

In celebration of wrapping up the year, Inven will meet with developers who will lead the Korean game industry in the future.[뉴에이지]We conducted a special interview. The third subject is Park Sung-jun, Head of Round8 Studio.

Until the release of Lies of P
Round8 Studio's goal is to build development capabilities

Kim Sujin = You've left a mark on the Korean game industry. You've had various experiences that others haven't through Lies of P. What possibilities did you see and start the challenge?

Park Sung-jun= We decided to do the project in 2019. At that time, the Korean game market was mostly mobile games. But even then, there were already talks that targeting the overseas market wasn't going well. We thought that continuing to develop while only looking at the domestic market would be too competitive and a strategically difficult fight.

So, we wanted to create a game that would achieve meaningful results in the global market. Since mobile was a casual platform globally, we thought that targeting PC and console platforms would be the right way to target gamers. We set the direction that way and started thinking.

Kim Sujin = You could have made a live service game, couldn't you?

Park Sung-jun= Of course, we could have made a live service game. Live service games are naturally good, and many gamers still play them. But unlike in the past, there are now so many games being released. You can see that the trend in the game market has changed. In the past, we couldn't play games because there weren't any. But now, there are too many games being released, and there are many other types of content to enjoy in our leisure time. I don't think it's an era where people lack content to enjoy, but rather where they lack time.

But live games require too much time. You have to log in every day, do homework, and as time goes on, gamers feel a lot of stress about that.

We saw single-player games as the opposite of that, games that you can enjoy for a short time. There's no competition, so there's no stress, you can take your time, and there's an end, so there's no pressure. From that perspective, I thought we should try a game without live service.

Kim Sujin = Would your past experiences be reflected in that choice?

Park Sung-jun= As an aside, the first game I made was Korum 3. I really liked the development experience of focusing on releasing a game within a set period and then moving on to the next project.

Live games have no end, so developers sometimes experience psychological difficulties. After working on a specific project for many years, they naturally want to do other work. Developers move to other companies to do other projects, and I think this trend has continued in the Korean game industry.

I don't think that's a good direction for the Korean game industry in the long term. People keep scattering, so the development capabilities of game companies don't build up. No matter how much you document internally and accumulate knowledge, if there's no one with experience, it's forgotten, not used, and disappears. As a result, I don't think the know-how of Korean developers has accumulated as quickly as it should have.

Round8 Studio's goal is for its members to gain various experiences within the studio. We want to create a studio where you can do single-package projects with various charms without going elsewhere. That's how the studio's experience builds up.

Domestic competition is no longer meaningful. We have a long way to go, but I think we need to build up our development capabilities for global competition.

Kim Sujin = Since it's not a live service, there seems to be a time when there's no revenue. Were you worried about that?

Park Sung-jun= Lies of P is still selling steadily. And we're making DLC, but we're not running a live team after release, so there's no cost. In a way, single-package games may seem like they only generate revenue once at the time of release, but it's also a genre that can continue to generate revenue.

Of course, the prerequisite is to make it well. I think you need to have a quality that is recognized by users to generate steady revenue. Our goal is to continue to make these games and operate the studio through them. Then, after 5 years or 10 years, I think those titles will continue to generate revenue and become a solid resource for preparing new games.

Kim Sujin = Then, conversely, I'm curious about what limitations you felt during the development process.

Park Sung-jun= The thing I felt most keenly was that we have very low awareness in the global market. I knew it, but I felt it more clearly during the production and launch process. As a result, it was difficult to propose something and difficult to get opportunities.

Fortunately, the title we presented received a good response, so we have a background. I think it was a good idea to challenge ourselves with Lies of P. It was a mountain that we had to climb once. Everyone has a first time, and the first time is bound to be difficult.

Kim Sujin = I definitely think the first time is really difficult. Now that you've passed that point, can you tell me what you're most concerned about recently?

Park Sung-jun= There are too many (laughs). I think the most important thing is studio growth. As I mentioned, we live in an era where we have to compete globally, but we still lack too much in all aspects, including experience. I think we lack not only knowledge aspects such as cultural values and codes that are important in the global market, but also the studio's competitiveness and development personnel.

In the end, the biggest challenge is how to grow further. Gathering good talent and helping internal talent grow are also part of that process. Of course, it's important to create a good environment so that those who gather can focus on development.

Kim Sujin = I think it would be much easier to attract good talent because Lies of P was a success. What do you think?

Park Sung-jun= Of course, it is. I think the direction we're pursuing has been well-received through Lies of P. Directors Jin Seung-ho and Lee Sang-gyun are also among them. In that respect, I think they joined us because they believed in our studio and wanted to work together.

The path Round8 Studio will take
We will continue to make games that users will like

Kim Sujin = When you first created Round8 Studio, I'm curious about what you were most concerned about as the head of the studio.

Park Sung-jun= In the end, people make games, so it's most important to attract and retain good talent. If project development is a one-time thing, we can't move forward. So, from the beginning, I told the CEO that we should make a flow by saving development capabilities, regardless of success or failure.

Releasing a game is naturally risky, so it may not work out well. But if development capabilities and know-how are alive, the probability of success increases next time. In the end, if you don't create a flow, you'll continue to fail, eliminate the team, and repeat this method. Because there was a consensus on this, we established a studio with the goal of 'a development project that moves forward even if it fails'.

And we needed talent to operate and create such a studio. We made a lot of efforts to gather them.

Kim Sujin = You need a good vision to gather talent, but it's really difficult to explain if there are no results. How did you persuade everyone in the early days of the studio's establishment?

Park Sung-jun= We created Round8 Studio and developed Bless Unleashed. At that time, we appealed that we would make console games to bring in good talent. There was a clear need for console game development in Korea, and many interested developers gathered.

We entered the Lies of P project before the development of Bless Unleashed was completed. We prepared in advance. I thought that talent would not leave if there was a next project and vision. It has continued until now.

Kim Sujin = The keyword 'console game' seems big from a developer's point of view. But why was the first project you tried Soulslike? There are so many different genres.

Park Sung-jun= There were several considerations. We set the direction in 2019, and at that time, the 'You Died' meme was just starting to emerge. As a result, public interest in Soulslike was growing. It was practically visible that the base was expanding. I thought there was expandability as a genre.

But the Soulslike genre was practically monopolized by FromSoftware. I thought it was a market where demand was increasing but supply was not. Of course, FromSoftware makes games very well, but even FromSoftware can't release a game every year. Then, Soulslike fans have to wait a long time for the next game to come out.

I thought it would be worth trying if we could fill that gap. Of course, the standards of Soulslike fans are very high, so the quality of the game had to be high. And the reason why Soulslike games weren't released much was because it was a difficult genre to make. I thought that the more difficult it was to develop, the greater the potential for growth. I thought that if we did well and achieved results, we could establish a solid position and continue the series.

Kim Sujin = Then, are the next projects also aimed at Soulslike? Or are you looking at other genres?

Park Sung-jun= We are currently working on Lies of P DLC and sequels, but ultimately, our goal is to make games that users like. It's not limited to a specific genre. Of course, we have accumulated Soulslike experience, and there are people who are good at making it, so there is a very high possibility that we will do an action-oriented project. But if there is an idea that users will like, we will develop it regardless of genre.

Kim Sujin = Round8 Studio has established itself as a developer that makes Soulslike games well to global users. But if a game of a different genre comes out, you may have to give up some of the Soulslike fandom you've built up this time. Is there a reason why you thought you should make games of various concepts and genres?

Park Sung-jun= If we want to become a Soulslike professional studio and continue to develop that genre, we need several professional directors who can make it as well as Director Choi Ji-won. I think that's a very difficult point.

But if there is a director who can do really well in a genre other than Soulslike, and that person's ability is very good and the idea is also good, we can try another genre. You can think of it as that kind of approach.

And the studio's identity is not clearly defined as one genre. In our case, we have a separate development team brand. Lies of P was developed by Team NOUGH in Round8 Studio. The Team NOUGH logo appears at the beginning.

Round8 Studio has several teams, and they all have different personalities. We also plan to brand the teams themselves. So, I think users will recognize the characteristics and identities of each team in the future.

Kim Sujin = Feedback seems to be very important when making games that users like. Lies of P also conducted a FGT for users who enjoy the Soulslike genre. I'm curious about how much of this user feedback you apply.

Park Sung-jun= In the case of Lies of P, we received detailed user feedback and reviewed it very seriously. However, that doesn't mean we accept all user feedback. We have our own direction. I think it's important to filter out feedback that doesn't fit that.

And we also go through a test process similar to FGT internally every month. Hundreds of people provide feedback like real players. We are evaluating very coldly, so a lot of feedback comes out. The director checks all of that and makes it into a task.

Kim Sujin = Is the director ultimately responsible for managing and adjusting the feedback you get?

Park Sung-jun= I think it's the director's area. In most companies, the business team often thinks together. But it's difficult to see the whole picture as insightfully as the director. In the end, I think it's important for the director to digest it in the way they understand it.

Kim Sujin = A very high level of perfection is really important for single-package games. Were there any special efforts or related episodes you made for this?

Park Sung-jun= These days, users' standards are really high. But you have to meet that height. I think that's the role of the development team, and it's the right thing to do.

When I was working on the Lies of P main story, I had an amazing experience. Near the end of the game development, just before the gold, there was feedback from inside that we should create something new on the wall. In the case of Lies of P, most of the enemies are dolls in the beginning. Then, at some point in the middle, the atmosphere changes and the Carcass appears.

But before the Carcass appeared, they said they wanted to show them stuck to the wall, dead. It's just a wall in a passing passage, but the Carcass stuck there are dead and don't fight. But they thought it would be good to give users curiosity through this.

In fact, I knew the intention of the feedback, but I wondered if it was necessary to do it. But in the end, we proceeded, and a really amazing thing happened after the release. After the release, I watched streamers play a lot. I'm doing it to check what they're talking about and what kind of feedback they have.

But one streamer was playing the game and stopped right at that point. He stopped and looked closely, and then talked for a long time about how there seemed to be something related to it later. That experience was so amazing that I still remember this behind-the-scenes story clearly.

Kim Sujin = In the end, users seem to recognize all the details and efforts.

Park Sung-jun= That's right. I really felt it for sure. Even if it seems like nothing and it's trivial, if we make it with care, users will definitely recognize it. And those play experiences accumulate and accumulate, and users judge that 'this game was really made with care and effort'.

A well-made game doesn't just come out. Many things have to be accumulated to be recognized by users. I felt that through the Carcass behind-the-scenes story. After that, I never doubt it. If the director says to do it, I think 'that's right' (laughs).

I think the details in the game are a very important value for users. There is a common saying among users in the community about well-made games. 'This game was really made with care'. In the end, users feel the most sensitively and delicately about the perfection of the game and the efforts of the development team that went into it. And those facts accumulate and the game is evaluated.

Kim Sujin = I feel a commitment to optimization and technical response, such as the Lies of P PS5 PRO enhanced support that was recently announced.

Park Sung-jun= All the games we will make in the future will have something in common, and I said that we will make games that are recognized by users. I'm also a gamer, and the members are also gamers. From a gamer's point of view, if you compare a game with very pretty graphics that barely runs at 30 frames per second with a game that is moderately pretty but runs at 60 frames per second, I think I prefer the latter. But these days, showing off is important, so recent games are often criticized in that regard.

We are an action game, so we paid a lot of attention to optimization. From the beginning, we proceeded by solving problems through the optimization TF team. The main story itself is very well optimized, so platform expansion was relatively easy. Of course, it wasn't easy at all.

Mac was not planned from the beginning. But after MetalFX came out, it ran so well on its own. Apple also showed a lot of interest and gave us the opinion that they wanted to work with us. So, it happened naturally. There was no reason not to do it if the game ran well.

Neowiz and Round8 Studio's next
I want to present 3 solid IPs in 10 years

Kim Sujin = You disclosed the sales ratio by country in the conference call. I saw that Korea was 7%, but the sales itself seems a bit low compared to the enthusiastic response from the Korean game industry.

Park Sung-jun= Compared to the proportion of Korean users based on the global standard, they have a lot of interest and purchased it. Since the absolute number of gamers who enjoy console games is small, the proportion itself is small, but the interest and passion were enormous. And without the support and help of Korean fans, it would have been difficult to come this far.

And when making a game, we don't target it by country. The goal is just to make the game fun. I think fun games work anywhere. It has nothing to do with the size of the market, and I've never thought about it.

Kim Sujin = In the case of package games, the measure of success tends to be sales. But I don't think that's important from a developer's point of view. I'm curious about what it's actually like.

Park Sung-jun= That was the case when I was doing Lies of P, and it's still the case now. We try a lot of new concepts internally. There's one thing I suggest to the directors. It's very difficult to sell 1 million or 2 million copies suddenly in the first work. So, there's only one thing I ask for in the first work.

That's about 'evaluation'. It could be a Steam evaluation or Metacritic, but the standard is to exceed a certain level of evaluation for quality. It's not about how many copies you sell.

In the case of the first game, it's a new IP, unfamiliar, and lacks awareness, so it may not sell well. But if the user evaluation is good, I think you can definitely achieve good results. Then, in the next work, you'll gain experience, so you'll make fewer mistakes and do better.

The game industry is a very risky battle with a low probability of success. To increase that probability of success, you have to work hard to make the game and continue to build know-how so that you can get good evaluations from users.

Now, Lies of P has well over 8 million players, including Game Pass. So, sometimes people ask if I regret going into Game Pass, and if I could have done more.

The Steam user evaluation fluctuates between 92~3%. So, if you just calculate it arithmetically, 92% of the 8 million users were satisfied, so when Lies of P 2 is released, I think about 95% of those 8 million people will be interested in the title. And I think a significant number of them will buy our game. In the end, there's no need to argue about Game Pass. And I think it's already a success because it gave a lot of satisfaction to a lot of users.

Kim Sujin = In fact, overseas developers are saying the same thing about Game Pass. They said that if you get a lot of attention by going into Game Pass, more users will buy the sequels or DLC that come out after that. In a way, you can see it as collecting an asset called a fan base.

Park Sung-jun= That's right. These days, it's important for subculture games to gather fans. You don't disappoint fans, you make what they want, and you steadily build and grow your fans. Package games are the same. The most important thing is not to disappoint our users, our fans.

No matter how well you make Lies of P, it doesn't mean anything if Lies of P 2 is bad. It's really important to make the game well. It's definitely not easy, but there's no other answer.

Kim Sujin = Neowiz is a company that has achieved good results on Steam, including Lies of P. Do you have any tips related to that?

Park Sung-jun= We are one of the Korean game companies that has built a good relationship with Steam. We were also the first company in Korea to offer a publisher discount.

When working with Steam, there are many times when it doesn't seem to be moving according to any rules or algorithms. It's difficult to say exactly because there are no regulations or rules. It seems to change a lot depending on the situation.

However, there are facts. For example,찜, and after the launch, user evaluation is important. If the evaluation is low, they will take it down even if they put it up in front. If you are doing a pre-order, it seems that they value the pre-order trend.

Kim Sujin = There was a Steam Next Fest recently, and a lot of games were submitted. It seems really difficult to stand out among them. Lies of P achieved first place in the Most Popular Upcoming Releases and Most Wishlisted Upcoming Releases categories in 2023. How do you think that was possible?

Park Sung-jun= In fact, the biggest misconception is that if you release a game on Steam, people will just come and play it. I think a lot of people think that they can sell at least 100,000 copies. But if you are not prepared at all, it is difficult to sell even a few hundred copies. You can only get an evaluation of what the game is like if it is exposed. The most important thing is how much exposure you can get.

So, these days, there are many cases where people contact us. It's because of the publisher exposure. If you press Lies of P and go inside, the games of the same publisher come out below. There is a lot of exposure like that, and thanks to that, the sales of other Neowiz games also increase. Especially during publisher discounts, the effect is even greater. There are many successful works such as DJMAX and Sannabi, so you can see that Neowiz games help each other.

Kim Sujin = There is a famous drama line that says, "The scenery changes when the place you stand changes." Were there any scenery or feelings that you didn't know or couldn't see at first, but that you felt newly from your current position?

Park Sung-jun= I don't think I'm in that position yet (laughs). I think I've become more humble. When you focus on making one game, your vision narrows. Because I only look at our game, I feel like our game is the most fun.

But now, as I'm growing the studio, my vision has naturally become very broad. I'm seeing various concepts while working with several directors, meeting overseas developers through publishing, and hearing about the games they're preparing. As I'm exposed to so much, my vision has also broadened.

I also have more worries. Things that I thought were okay before, I look at them one more time, and I see a lot of shortcomings. What should I say, as my vision has broadened, I've become more cautious. It's like I've met the sea instead of climbing a mountain.

We're working with Jin Seung-ho and Lee Sang-gyun this time. They've already created a concept and are working on prototyping. The two directors are so good at narrative, so I really like the concept and narrative they've come up with. I even thought, is this the difference between amateurs and professionals (laughs).

Thanks to that, I realized again that there are many talented developers, and they can add great value to the project. So, even though there are already a lot of people in the studio who are doing well, I've decided to keep looking for other developers and appeal to them to work together.

Kim Sujin = If the keyword at the time of release was challenge, what would be the keyword for the next goal?

Park Sung-jun= It's still a challenge. I think we have a long way to go. I think there are still so many things to challenge. It's just the beginning.

Kim Sujin = When you first started with Lies of P, there must have been realistic difficulties. Nevertheless, what was the reason for deciding to take on the challenge?

Park Sung-jun= Of course, we lacked experience, but because we set the direction and strategy that way, we focused on gathering people who could actually develop. We've been gathering people who wanted to make console games or had direct or indirect experience since we were doing Bless Unleashed, and there were quite a few.

And the most important thing was the will to develop console games. We started with the mindset of not expecting anything and doing everything directly from zero base. There was nowhere to ask, so we learned a lot while trying. The developers worked really hard.

Kim Sujin = It's amazing that you released a successful game like Lies of P from zero base.

Park Sung-jun= There's really no other answer than to keep doing it steadily. It sounds like an obvious answer, but if you walk silently, it will work out someday. We've tried it, and that's right. There's no shortcut.

Kim Sujin = Now that you've shown Lies of P, users expect more than that. What efforts are you making?

Park Sung-jun= Director Choi Ji-won is having a really hard time because of that. He has a lot of worries. In fact, at first, I thought the sequel would be a little easier. The world view has already been created, and there is an existing framework, so I thought it would be enough to do a little more.

But that's not the case. It's much more difficult. Expectations are high, and there are concerns about how much change users will accept. How much do they like to change? It's a really fundamental question, but I don't know the answer.

And there were parts that the developers were disappointed with, right? There are definitely things that each of them wanted to do more. But because they have greed, it's more difficult.

Kim Sujin = The biggest concern seems to be how much to change compared to the previous work.

Park Sung-jun= It's really too difficult. But I definitely think it's necessary to persuade users. We need to make a game that can persuade them why we made the changes.

Kim Sujin = If we do an interview again in 10 years, what kind of determination or promise would you like to make?

Park Sung-jun= The studio has a 10-year vision. It's natural and simple, but the goal is to create three series that are loved by fans and release sequels steadily. If Lies of P does well in the sequel, it may become such an IP.

So, if there are three such IPs in 10 years, I think it would be a great success for the studio. And I think those three IPs will also be a solid foundation for continued growth and development in the future. That's my goal. In 10 years, I would really like to have an interview with those three great IPs.

Webzine InvenReporter Kim Sujin
2024-12-13