Vortex Gaming

It's been two years since I interviewed CEO Cho Yong-min. In the meantime, Red Wheel Games, which he co-founded with co-CEO Seo Yong-soo, changed its name to Mistil Games. Over the past two years, CEO Cho Yong-min has achieved various developments such as attracting investment and developing new titles, growing the company into a game company that is attracting attention in the industry.

Externally, there is high interest in 'Time Takers', which is being developed by Mistil Games, and its relationship with NCSOFT, which has invested in the game. On the other hand, CEO Cho Yong-min's interest was directed towards the next step. He was contemplating what kind of game the market wants, what kind of game can attract users' attention, and what kind of game can allow Mistil Games to take a half step forward.

It's been two years since the last interview. How have you been?

= A lot has happened. First of all, we have almost completed the framework for our first title, 'Time Takers'. It took about a year and a half. Also, we received additional investment in the meantime. Now, we are focusing on scaling up ahead of the release.

In terms of company size, we have grown from about 10 people two years ago to about 60 people now. And we have started developing our second title, 'Gray', and are creating a prototype. We are just receiving investment and working hard to make games like any other game company.

Looking back at the past interview, I hoped to meet a good publisher at the time.

= I really thought about it carefully. Fortunately, many people came to us, and after much deliberation, I think we found a good publisher. The contract for 'Gray' has not yet been finalized, but we will work hard with both companies to present 'Time Takers' in a good way.

The company name was changed from 'Red Wheel Games' to 'Mistil Games'. Personally, I was impressed by the old logo, which was shaped like a Ferris wheel in an amusement park. Is there a reason for the change?

= 'Red Wheel' contained my own philosophy and I thought it was a good name. However, there were limitations in terms of company branding. There were cases where other companies came up when I searched for it, and I wanted to create a name with a more unique brand.

'Mistil' refers to something that does not exist in the world, and is taken from 'Mistilteinn', which means mistletoe. Mistletoe is a very fragile tree, but it plays an important role in mythology. I decided to change it after thinking about it with my co-founder, Seo Yong-soo, because I thought it contained the philosophy we had when we founded the company.

The co-founding with co-CEO Seo Yong-soo was also a hot topic in the industry.

= Personally, I thought we were people with very clear strengths. Of course, we also acknowledge each other's weaknesses, and collaboration is good in that area. Even now, Yong-soo is very concerned about the deep parts of the game and the development part. Of course, he also has an excellent eye for artwork and is excellent at looking at the game as a whole.

I look at the industrial aspects of the game and the general aspects of the business, and he helps me a lot so that I can perform well in my role as a PD.

I don't really feel any disadvantages of the co-CEO system. In the case of other companies, it seems that people with similar strengths sometimes meet and fight. We haven't fought yet. Our areas of work are too different. So I think it's good to see it as a culture of mutual respect.

Looking back on CEO Cho Yong-min's career, he was in charge of action at his first game company, and then worked as a PD after following his leader to a new job. And now he is the CEO of the company. I'm curious about what you felt as your position changed.

= First of all, as you grow as a game developer, team leader, department head, PD, or head of department, the complexity of the work increases and the sense of responsibility increases. In particular, I feel that the sense of responsibility is really scary as I become the CEO. Fortunately, the skills I have acquired as I have grown sequentially are all helpful. I don't think I've changed particularly because I became the CEO.

I still consider myself a PD, a developer, and a planner. I don't think the area has changed, I just feel that the pie has grown.

It's already been over two years since we founded the company. There must have been some regrets.

= Since I only did development, there were some hiccups in the legal aspects when I first started the company. It was a bit difficult because I had to study those things by trial and error. Now, there are many people around me who help me. Now, I think it's a more developed form that I can operate the company more efficiently in terms of money and focus on development.

Were there things you wanted to keep when running the company after starting it?

= The first virtue of a game development studio is to make fun games. The second is to share the results of the hard-made game with the people who developed it together. I think it's about keeping that plan, not just talking about it.

Of course, we also need to be agile in quickly finding changes in the market or what suits our game in this development room. I think those aspects are still being well maintained. The game is coming out better than I thought, and the partner companies understand that well. So I think the company is running very efficiently.

There are high expectations for the first work, 'Time Takers'.

= While developing from the initial concept stage to the release version, what has become sharper is that it has evolved from the existing 'character fight' rules into a battle royale game with time and lifespan as the subject matter. We call this genre 'Time Race'.

To explain in detail, it is a TPS-based game with a faster sense of speed. Each character has strong personality and skills, and there are also many aspects that can be used strategically.

What differentiates it from existing battle royale games is that the characters' lifespan and time are used in the competition. I think we have differentiated ourselves by incorporating these features well into the rules.

'Gray' is also under development. How did you allocate the manpower for the two games?

= Currently, about 15 people are developing 'Gray'. All other developers are making 'Time Takers'. Since our company's support department has about 10 people, there are about 30 'Time Takers' developers.

In the last interview, I estimated the release date of 'Time Takers' to be around early 2024. Is there a reason why you spent another year?

= At the time, the relationship with the publisher and the potential of the game were a bit unclear. The original plan was to release the game in early access and slowly monitor the market's response.

Now, I think it is clear what kind of investment should be made in our game and where it stands in the market. In the current market situation, early access is not being received positively. Especially since we are a new development company, we could be completely buried if there is no impact in the beginning. So I thought it would be better to increase the completeness of the game and release it after securing expectations.

During the past development period, I worked hard to secure the volume of the game to the point where it could be officially serviced right away. Also, fortunately, many parts of the game have been refined, so I think the gameplay has become smoother than I initially thought.

Do you think it's time to release 'Time Takers' to the world?

= I think it's almost time to release it to the world. The core points of the initial plan have not changed at all, and we have supplemented many detailed aspects in terms of elements that users can smoothly accept when they first encounter a new genre and the sustainability of the game.

In the development process, the game can become too complex and strategic, so we went through a stage of appropriately adjusting these parts. In addition, we built a worldview and worked hard on storytelling using the theme of time travel so that users could immerse themselves in this worldview. I think we have now established a somewhat complete framework.

I would like you to introduce it from a gameplay perspective.

= Each character has a lifespan, and there is a farming element that steals each other's lifespan. The method is to steal the opponent's lifespan when you kill them. Time flows faster and faster as you play, which is structured to accelerate encounters between players.

There is an element of betting based on lifespan, so if a player pursues safety, their combat power may weaken. It has a unique structure where you can only become stronger and increase your chances of survival if you take some risks. If users actually play it, they will think, "The battle royale genre with time as the subject matter goes quite well together."

The initial mode is a structure in which four teams participate in duos or trios. Duo mode has 8 players, and trio mode has 12 players. We are also preparing a solo mode, but we are primarily considering duo and trio modes.

Can the character design be seen as CEO Seo Yong-soo's style?

= That's right. Yong-soo has his own style. In the industry, Yong-soo is famous for being able to model directly without original artwork. However, after watching him work, I realized that he was not just a genius who vaguely came up with designs in his head, but rather a very technical person. He was very interested in new technologies and did not hesitate to apply them. He has a development style that extracts extreme efficiency with those technologies and does not let go of his own art style in the process. So when I watch him develop, I feel like he is someone who is difficult to see as just an artist.

Looking at the characters, I think you are pursuing various things while not missing out on pretty things.

= Yong-soo just seems to make what he thinks is cool in his eyes. He doesn't develop with any special intentions. Rather, I sometimes ask him to make something pretty.

There are also high expectations for 'Gray'. How far has it been developed?

= It is still difficult to draw a clear picture and convey it in sentences. If I were to pick keywords, it would be an action adventure and have many SF elements. And the theme is traditional tribes.

We are using a specific primitive tribe of Haengseok as a concept, and artistically, it is similar to Native Americans. And we are adding a lot of puzzle elements.

We designed the keywords with materials that have a large gap in character. We are now in the process of mixing these keywords. If it mixes well, I think there will be another opportunity to introduce what this game is.

In addition to the two games, what kind of games will Mistil Games develop in the future?

= There are many things I have in mind. In fact, I think we are taking the lead in the games that the market wants, rather than realizing what we have in mind. We think about what kind of game is needed after the market gets tired of a certain genre. The same goes for platforms. So we are not a company that insists on a specific genre or platform.

In fact, I think we can make almost all games. However, we will make games that the market needs with our own style without copying them. I hope that if our game matches the market, we will be loved by users and achieve meaningful results.

Mistil Games is one of the startups that is attracting attention in the game industry. What do you think is Mistil Games' strength in the startup line?

= I don't refer to the methods of other companies that were founded around the same time. I think that I and other companies all pursue different things. Some may pursue stability, and some may try to do what they want.

Our strength is that we do what we do best. It doesn't matter if we are not a 'first mover' or a 'fast follower'. Because something that has no potential in the market means that users are not waiting for it, we basically want to make games that are loved.

And if possible, we aim to be the best in the genre in all the games we make. I think we are more concerned about competing with existing game companies in the market than other startups.

If we do something differently, there must be a reason for it. If the reason for being different is a change that users are waiting for, that is commerciality. Conversely, users may dislike changes in some genres. Changes in those genres may be bravado. So we are approaching each genre differently.

We joined hands with NCSOFT. There may be a reason why NCSOFT invested in Mistil Games, but conversely, there may be a reason why Mistil Games received investment from NCSOFT. What was the reason why CEO Cho Yong-min chose NCSOFT?

= Many people were worried about it. And I was very worried too. There were many things to worry about, but when I actually met and talked, I realized that those worries were unfounded. Despite being one of the oldest and best companies in Korea, there is a big wind of change blowing internally recently, and the standard for that change is similar to the direction our company is pursuing.

NCSOFT, which I met and talked to, was very different from what I had heard in rumors. It may be a bit presumptuous to say, but I felt a sense of 'desperation' from NCSOFT. NCSOFT showed that it wanted to change, and I was convinced that if it went in that direction, we could cooperate and become a relationship that would benefit each other. After the contract, I felt that NCSOFT was a really good partner. They are helping us faster than I thought in terms of development.

What is NCSOFT like as a publisher?

= Usually, publishers look at the marketability of the game and make various demands. One of the reasons why I felt that NCSOFT was desperate was that they would guarantee 'development autonomy'. Of course, we are willing to accept it if NCSOFT makes reasonable suggestions.

However, NCSOFT guarantees us so much development autonomy that we are actually asking NCSOFT for more opinions. (laughs) We are currently conducting an internal test phase of 'Time Takers', and we are coordinating the opinions from NCSOFT and reflecting them in the changes to the game.

Isn't there an under-the-table stage of negotiation? I'm curious about what kind of exchanges there were before signing the contract.

= In fact, NCSOFT joined the negotiation table a bit late. We were showing the game to other investors, but they belatedly jumped into the negotiation competition.

So, without any behind-the-scenes work, the people in charge checked our game, and then the decision-maker came and reviewed it two or three times before immediately presenting the conditions. I remember that the momentum was amazing when they presented the conditions. At that time, I felt that they really wanted us. In the stage of adjusting the conditions, NCSOFT showed that they really wanted to work with us.

The investment numbers have not yet been released.

= The numbers may be a sensitive issue to disclose now. But to tell you a little bit, we have secured enough investment to complete the development of our next game, 'Gray'.

What are your expectations for future collaboration with NC?

= I am looking forward to the scale aspects that small companies cannot do. NCSOFT is a large company with a long history and tradition, so I am looking forward to their operating and service know-how. And I hope that they will work hard to develop our IP together.

I asked a similar question in the interview two years ago. The game market has changed a lot in the past two years, so how do you see the current game market and what kind of games do you want to make through Mistil Games?

= There have been changes in trends such as the metaverse and AI, but from the user's perspective, I think there is dissatisfaction with not being able to enjoy fun games to the fullest due to the increase in game production costs. I think there is a sense of problem with the fact that it costs too much money to make AAA-class games, but I think the atmosphere is a little different for each genre.

For example, the character fight and battle royale genres are very tired, and in mobile games, there is an atmosphere of wanting to improve the completeness of existing games rather than new changes. So I'm very worried.

However, there was a case recently where a specific game in the character fight genre caused concern in the market, but then another game was released and dispelled that concern.

Watching that, I felt that if the game is fun, users can always move on to new games, and there is always a demand for new fun. Recently, new games have not met the increased standards of users, but I think there are always users waiting for fun games.

Fortunately, the characteristics of the games currently released on the market are that they only change the material while copying the existing rules and systems. If we dig into that gap and naturally convey new rules and systems to users, I expect that users will smoothly accept it and enjoy it interestingly. I think we have a good chance of winning.

Users essentially pursue the fun of the game. Game companies must make users want to play the game. I think preparing a comprehensive service that can definitely satisfy users is the way to survive in the current game market.

You are also a planner. As a planner, I'm curious about what content you've seen meaningfully recently.

= When planning a game, I think I design the components that the game should have well. Making the parts that the market wants the strengths of the game, appropriately adjusting the parts that are too special and burdensome in the market so that anyone can easily access them, I think these points are important.

The games that I have seen meaningfully as a planner are 'Clash Royale' and 'Baldur's Gate 3'. 'Clash Royale' was a very well-organized game, and I recently played 'Baldur's Gate 3' with great impression. In particular, 'Baldur's Gate 3' was greatly impressed in areas other than the areas I am good at. The part that digs into the details to the end was touching, and I received a lot of stimulation as a content creator.

I also get a lot of inspiration from movies as well as games. Recently, I enjoyed watching the Netflix drama 'Three-Body Problem'. I enjoyed watching the movie 'In Time' because it was one of the works that I got the material for the game, and I was particularly interested in the way the world was built.

I think I learned a lot about expression techniques while watching movies. If you look at old Hong Kong movies, there is an expression technique that connects the scene of raindrops flowing down the glass to the appearance of a character being sad. Watching that, I felt, 'You can express it like this'. I don't just bring the directing techniques as they are, but I think about how I can apply various mise-en-scènes to the game.

It's the same when playing sports. Snowboarding is fun every time even though it's repeating the same action. I wonder why it's fun even though I'm repeating the same action. Simply put, repetition should not be fun. But when I snowboard, the situation is different every time, the scenery changes, and the wind and obstacles change, so I think it's fun because I can adjust the difficulty myself.

From that point of view, I am learning a lot from traditional games and play. I am always thinking about how I can express the essence of that fun more sophisticatedly by using the latest technology.

What kind of games will you make in the future?

= I will continue to keep an eye on the games that the market needs, just like I have been doing. I will try to bring out our own personality within that. I don't want to make the same thing as others. If we can make something that we are good at and a differentiated game, we will develop the game regardless of genre or platform.

Now that we have received investment, we can grow the company further. I'm curious about how you will run the company as a manager.

= In fact, I'm very careful because I'm a very beginner as a CEO. I'm not sure how much we can maintain the current culture up to a certain size. So I'm increasing the size very carefully. I'm also careful when hiring people.

Thanks to this, our company has a very low turnover rate. Only one person has left since the company was founded. So far, everyone seems to agree with our company's vision. We value each and every employee and are working hard to ensure that the company's culture is not diluted. It is important for the company to make a lot of money and grow in size, but I plan to grow it slowly until the company's culture is firmly established.

Whether the company makes a lot of money or is ready to grow in size, I plan to increase it slowly until the company's culture is fully prepared.

What is the company culture you want to emphasize?

= It's not about working moderately. We value everyone working like a professional and hope they have a high sense of responsibility. And since our company is still a small and medium-sized enterprise, the idea of making it moderately is never tolerated.

I'm a little scared. There's a saying that if you go to a country with only one eye, a person with two eyes is considered a strange person. If a certain group of people, that is, people who don't work hard, exceeds 50%, the person who works hard becomes a strange person at some point. Organizations, groups, and companies that have grown rapidly tend to experience these side effects. I want to avoid those side effects.

What points do you value when looking at people?

= It's a little different for each job. For example, in the art field, I prefer people with a strong obsession with quality. As for planners, I like people who have a well-established knowledge system that they have built up through long experience. I am looking for people who have been enjoying games since they were young and have a certain level of planning for the games they will make in the future based on the experience and knowledge they have accumulated.

In addition, I prefer people who have a broad view of the world and can logically draw conclusions. So I often ask economic-related questions in planner interviews. For example, I ask questions such as what happens to the convenience store next to Pohang Iron and Steel when the yen weakens. Even if you don't get the answer right, it's easy to tell if you've trained in the process of logically drawing conclusions.

Programmers value responsibility the most. They value the tenacity to accept new technologies and optimize them to the end. Since the competencies required for each field are different, we must create a culture that recognizes each other's abilities. Conflicts between different organizations often arise because the abilities they require are different. Problems arise when each organization requires the same abilities from other organizations. I am working hard to coordinate those parts.

As a manager, are you feeling the characteristics of 'today's developers'?

= In the past company culture, the top-down relationship was taken for granted, but these days, developers often question the intention of work instructions if the intention is not clear. Fortunately, I like to explain the intention of the work to the developers, so I can explain it endlessly. However, as the company grows, it becomes difficult to explain it to every employee one by one. So I'm thinking about how to build a system that can efficiently convey the intention. It seems that the most difficult thing is to get all employees to move towards the same goal.

I'm also curious about why the members chose Mistil Games, can you introduce it?

= There were many different reasons. Some people joined the company because their house was close, and the audio manager was the person who bought the keyboard of the audio director I used to know on a used trading platform. I hired him because of that relationship, and it turned out that he was very good at making music, so we started working together.

I accidentally met a junior who was developing games in the neighborhood when I gave a lecture. After the lecture, I talked to him at a drinking party and found out that he had grown up wonderfully. So I brought him to our company. This happens often. Most of our company's employees are experienced, but it wasn't intentional to only hire experienced people. However, most of the people I know are experienced, so that's how it happened. There is no prejudice against hiring new employees.

Many developers are interested in Mistil Games, so I'm curious if there are any special welfare benefits.

= We are making a lot of effort. We have recently prepared many welfare benefits. I think we have the basics well, such as basic meals, support for late-night taxi fares, condolence, insurance, and health checkups. It's not huge, but we provide delicious snacks that developers will like, and we don't spare any expenses when purchasing equipment necessary for development. We are doing our best to support them to increase development work efficiency. As I said before, we are very careful when hiring people, so once a person joins the company, we spare no support to ensure that they can achieve the best efficiency.

Do you have any plans to go public?

= We are open to various possibilities. People outside are curious about going public or selling the company, but I don't think it's time to discuss those things yet. Right now, we are focusing on making and servicing games well to build a foundation as a company. We will make a decision when the time is right, but there are no concrete plans yet because the company has only been established for a short time.

Finally, when can we meet 'Time Takers'?

= I have to decide after consulting with NCSOFT, but my personal expectation is that we will be able to show it to users in a playable form within this year. Nothing has been confirmed yet, but we are also considering a public test plan. We will work with NCSOFT to present the best game to users with various options.

Webzine InvenInven Team
2025-02-10